steepholm: (tree_face)
steepholm ([personal profile] steepholm) wrote2014-03-21 11:02 am
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A Taxonomy of Objections to "Cis"

Anyone who is unwise enough (as I occasionally am, though less often now than in the past) to get involved in the comments pages of newspapers when trans subjects are discussed, will have noticed that any use of the words "cis" or "cisgender" is likely to draw angry protests. I think those of us who find "cis" a useful and uncontentious word are frequently taken aback by this - what could anyone have against a neutral descriptive term, simply meaning "not trans"?

This post is an attempt to look at the various objections in a less febrile setting. I welcome comments and additions.

Origin of "cis"

Most of my friends list is familiar with this terminology and its origins and should feel free to skip this part, but just in case anyone isn't, the historical origin of "cis" (which is apparently celebrating its twentieth birthday this year) comes from the perceived need to find a non-value-laden term to describe people who are not trans. Previously, there was no word available other than some variation on "normal" - which is clearly loaded. Even "non-trans" carries the implication of a default, of the absence of a condition, and thus disguises the fact that people who are not trans have a gender identify of their own, a gender identity that (like trans people's) has some kind of relationship with their body and with the ways that they are perceived and treated by others. A very close analogy would be "straight" or "heterosexual", as used to describe someone who is not gay.

The choice of "cis" in particular comes from its being a Latin prefix opposite in meaning to "trans": compare Cisalpine Gaul and Transalpine Gaul, for example.


What do you sound like?

Most people who understand "cis" in the terms I have described, including myself, find it quite hard to get their heads round the visceral strength of other people's objections. After all, it's not as if the word "cis" in any way implies approval of trans people. Even homophobes are generally happy to be described as "straight" or "heterosexual" (in fact they frequently insist on it); why would "cis" be different? But in newspapers and in Facebook pages across the land, conversations like the following are taking place:

A: Today we're discussing trans issues. Can I ask you to comment, as a cisgender woman?
B: How dare you label me like that! I'm just a woman!
A: But---
B: You people object to being called "shemales", so please extend me the same courtesy and don't foist a label on me that I find offensive!


To me, this makes as much (or little) sense as the following:

A: Today we're discussing attitudes to same-sex attraction. Can I ask you to comment, as a heterosexual woman?
B: How dare you label me like that! I'm just a woman!
A: But---
B: You people object to being called "faggots", so please extend me the same courtesy and don't foist a label on me that I find offensive!


I'm not saying the second exchange could never happen, but I've never come across it - whereas I see versions of the first all the time.

What's going on? Is there some fundamental dishonesty at work? Some element of denial? Is the world just full of stupid people? Or am I missing something important?

I've come up with a few possible explanations.

Derailing

One way that the anti-cis argument is used is as a deliberate (and very successful) derailing tactic. Trans-exclusionary feminists often leap on the word as a way of diverting any discussion of trans stuff into the Semantic Swamp. However, this is not a sufficient explanation: for the tactic to gain the traction it frequently does, it must play on some real concern - so let us keep looking...

Ugly "cis"

I include this not because it has any serious merit as an argument but because I've seen it raised many times for want of a better. This is the idea that "cis" is an ugly word in itself, so that its use is necessarily insulting on aesthetic grounds. Oddly enough, though, I've never heard anyone object to being called a "sister". A variant on this argument is that there's something effetely academic about using a Latin prefix, that shows trans people are "educated beyond all common sense and honesty" (to quote Julie Burchill). Does that argument merit refutation? I think not.

Insulting "cis"

Some words are always used in an insulting way, to the extent that it's fair to say that their very use is insulting. "Faggot" would be one example - and I'm sure you can supply others. One argument against "cis" is that its use is insulting in this way.

This isn't borne out by usage, however. The vast majority of uses of the word "cis" that I've seen - and all the ones that have engendered the kinds of argument that sparked this post - have been pretty neutrally descriptive. (I'm not sure any word can ever be entirely neutral, but that's an argument for another day.) It's true of course that, like any word, "cis" can be an insult if used insultingly. I've occasionally seen trans people - usually after they've been at the receiving end of some pretty horrible treatment - refer to "cis bastards", etc. It does happen. Similarly, I've heard women say "Men are bastards". This does not make "man" an insulting term in itself, and no more does it make "cis" one.

Labelling "cis"

"How dare you pin a label on me that I don't accept!" I think this is the commonest form that the objections to "cis" take, and in some ways it's the most complex - in fact, the next three on the list might all usefully be seen as facets of this one. For now, though, it's worth pointing out that simply applying adjectives to someone - describing them as, for example, English, dark-haired, right-handed, etc. - is not generally seen as an offensive activity, as long as a) the labels are factually accurate (it would be insulting to describe a Scot as English), and b) the context does not make it egregious. That is, while it might be offensive - and illegal - to mention someone's race in the context of a job interview, it could be appropriate in a discussion of their experience of racism. The people who object to the word "cis" on the grounds that they don't like being labelled generally do so in the context of discussing trans identities - which seems much more like the latter than the former situation.

Another point worth mentioning here is that of "community". I've posted before about my ambivalence around the idea of "the trans community", but I think it's fair to say that in a lot of people's minds being trans is associated with some kind of group identity, so that by analogy they feel that by being called "cis" they are being pressganged into a "cis community" - which of course they don't feel part of. I think this stems from a misunderstanding of what the word "community" means in this context - for more on which, see my earlier post.

Contaminating "cis"

The objection to being labelled "cis" is frequently followed by a phrase on the lines of "I am not a cis woman, I am simply a woman!". (I'm putting it this way because in my experience the vast majority of people who object to "cis" are women.) Given that the same people would not generally say "I am not an Englishwoman, I am simply a woman!", or "I am not a right-handed woman, I am simply a woman!", the implication is clearly that "cis" is some way qualifies or detracts from the authenticity of their womanhood, in a way that being English or right-handed would not. I'd love to hear an alternative explanation, but my understanding is that people who take this view don't hear the "trans" in the phrase "trans women" as an adjective on the lines of "right-handed". To them, a "trans woman" is not a woman who happens to be trans (as well as being many other things, of course), but a different kind of creature entirely, something other or less than a woman. By analogy, for them to be "cis women" would involve a similar contamination or qualification of their identity as women. In other words, this objection is born of simple transphobia.

"It implies that I buy in to the whole trans agenda"

I suspect that some people dislike the word "cis" because to them it suggests a general way of thinking and talking about gender that they don't hold with, a way of thinking that comes with a political agenda attached. Ultimately this is a view that will either be confirmed or refuted by lived experience. If trans people really do exist, then they need a way of talking about their lives, and "cis" (for reasons I outlined at the top) is a part of that. To deny that reality, or to reject the language that allows you to describe that reality, may be comfortable, but ultimately it's a doomed project. If trans-ness is just a fad, then fine - count to a hundred, and when you open your eyes maybe we'll have disappeared! As for the agenda part, I refer again to the fact that many homophobes are able to talk about people being "straight" and "gay" without in any way feeling they're buying in to the "gay agenda". This is really no different - so the good news is that using "cis" needn't stop you from holding transphobic views! On the contrary, you'll be able to express them with greater precision and economy.

Binary "cis"

I include this for the sake of completeness, more than because it forms a noticeable proportion of the anti-"cis" outrage I see online - but just occasionally I've seen people object to "cis" on the grounds that the "cis/trans" binary erases people whose gender identity lies somewhere in between, or elsewhere, or is fluid. I have some sympathy with that point of view, in fact. God knows, bi people and others sometimes feel similarly caught between the semantic behemoths of and gay and straight. Still, having words like "gay" and "straight" available is still more useful than not, and I would argue similarly for "trans" and "cis".

"We are many, you are few"

A couple of days ago, I met this argument for the very first time in the comments pages of the Guardian. I quote: "What next ? Is every minority group going to coin their own label for us just to ease their own feelings ? I, for one, am not ok with that."

I say I met it for the first time, but in fact I think it had been lurking behind a lot of other comments - this was unusual only in its explicitness. Essentially, it boils down to "How dare you speak back? How dare you look critically at us the way we look at you?" This isn't a trans-specific phenomenon of course, it's the voice of unexamined privilege everywhere. To test that hypothesis I asked my interlocutor whether they also found "neurotypical" offensive. (They did.)


And that's it - I'm out of ideas. As you can see, I've not managed to find one halfway decent argument here - but I hope I've at least managed to provide a useful taxonomy (I'm all about the taxonomies). Did I miss anything?
gillo: (wtf Tara)

[personal profile] gillo 2014-03-21 10:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Indeed. I worked in a girls' school in the 80s with a radical political lesbian feminist, girlfriend of one of the Big Names in the field. She was adamant that I was a gender traitor.

Then she left in order to move to Australia with her partner.
gillo: (Words)

[personal profile] gillo 2014-03-21 10:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I love "petal" and "flower", which is another Geordie term. Not to mention "hinnie".

[identity profile] diceytillerman.livejournal.com 2014-03-21 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Pretty much -- and just as with het -> bi -> gay, there are also many other options in the mix too. For example, for sexuality, there's pansexual, omnisexual, queer, etc; for gender, there's genderqueer, gender-nonconforming, genderfluid, etc.

Even a spectrum/continuum isn't enough, because it's linear. But we need it anyway. And then we need to keep adding and expanding. :)
yalovetz: A black and white scan of an illustration of an old Jewish man from Kurdistan looking a bit grizzled (electric gentleman)

[personal profile] yalovetz 2014-03-21 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I do feel a sense of discomfort with the term cis in relation to its binary nature. I definitely can't be described as cis and in a conversation where the terms cis and trans are being used I'm always fearful that I'm going to be labelled trans in contrast to cis, where those seem to be the only two options.

If the description is non trans, rather than cis, then I feel there's more space for me in the conversation, as I can imagine multiple ways of not being trans (eg. being cis, being non-binary of some description, being binary and post-transition, etc.).

Personally, I prefer to speak only about the specific facts of the situation and not use terms like cis or trans unless I'm describing someone's self identity. So instead of "as a cis woman" I would say something like "as a woman who's always been correctly identified as female..."
yalovetz: A black and white scan of an illustration of an old Jewish man from Kurdistan looking a bit grizzled (electric gentleman)

[personal profile] yalovetz 2014-03-21 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)
the assumption that we are cis if we're not trans

What bothers me about it is the inverse of this, that we are trans if we're not cis. Which is something I'm acutely sensitive to.

You're right, in that it's useful to have such terms, and that the binary nature of them as language doesn't necessarily imply a binary reality.

So maybe it's not that I object to the language, so much as not having the emotional resilience and fortitude to enter into conversations on the topics that are being discussed when such language is used. Personally, I need such topics to be addressed with acute sensitivity, and that basically means only having such conversations with people I'm intimate with and who will be extremely careful with me regarding the language they use.
ext_14294: A redhead an a couple of cats. (Default)

[identity profile] ashkitty.livejournal.com 2014-03-21 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, I've heard 'flower', too! (I spend Christmases in Newcastle with my Geordie friend's massive family.) They use the Welsh version in Ynys Mon as well; I've a friend who always starts texts with 'haia blodyn.'

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-21 11:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Personally, I need such topics to be addressed with acute sensitivity, and that basically means only having such conversations with people I'm intimate with and who will be extremely careful with me regarding the language they use.

That seems very reasonable to me.

[identity profile] diceytillerman.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 12:14 am (UTC)(link)
I don't like that assumption either. It's just, I don't think that that assumption is strengthened by cis being a known term rather than an assumed defaulty unnamed thing.

[identity profile] gillpolack.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 02:15 am (UTC)(link)
Some groups object to anything that identifies their privilege because they need to be important. This is why I was a feminist activist but never one of the radicals - I thought this was a very damaging approach to shared humanity.

There are other uses of a word that's apparently neutral that can hurt, though. Technically, I am a Yid - I'm Jewish and (mostly) of Ashkenazi origin and had a traditional upbringing and I even teach Jews about Jewish history - the word applies to me 100% accurately. If it were used neutrally, it would not be offensive in any way, shape or form. It would be more precise than 'cis' actually, which is a term imposed by others than me on me, whereas yid comes from one of my ancestral languages and describes my actual religion (ie it started as a Jewish self-description). Yid ought to be way more acceptable than cis. But look at the baggage it comes with!

The question is tied closely to who calls whom that and why. Most times I'm called cis as an entirely friendly categorisation, which is not a problem. But I have been called it accusingly, to highlight my lack of knowledge, or my mainstreamness. Now, I lack knowledge and, as regards gendering, I have undoubted privilege and I benefit from it - I am cis.

The label isn't the problem - it is the "You can't know this, be here, think this because this label describes you." Yid used by many people means I am basically a Fagin type or a Shylock type or a wealthy megalomaniac or someone who personally killed someone else's god and the world these labellers live in would be a better place without me. Again, the problem with the label is the way it is used. Apparently neutral labels become *much* more problematic when used negatively, because they expose hatred.

My question is (and it is a question - for I've only encountered negative judgement behind 'cis' on rare occasions) - who is using the term and how? When is it not a simple descriptive label? If it's in the arms of bigots, then the term is not one we (cis people) should be objecting to. Personally, having analysed the negative uses I've encountered, I don't think it carries a huge burden of negativity, so people who object are objecting for other reasons. I'm not sure, though, that we can take any labels on trust - we need to find out if they're used by idiots, to hurt.

The reason I think this is the same reason I used 'yid' as the example. 'Jew' would have been a better example, because I spent much time at school and at university defending my identity, and yid is a less common usage in Australia. People genuinely believed it was fine to use the descriptive label for a particular religion as if it described something not quite human and then defend it (when challenged) as a neutral description of someone who belongs to a minority religion. They genuinely didn't see that their use was inconsistent. The same group of (mostly law students) set a debate topic one year "That Hitler had the right idea" and I lost points from the adjudicator for reacting to it. When anyone is labelled and the label carries baggage, we respond to the label.

I don't believe cis has such baggage, but to know it for certain, we need to know the exact group/s that react to it as a term and then find out why they're reacting. Your categorisation would be better with specific uses, if they exist, or maybe to acknowledge that you've checked and that they don't exist (which is what I suspect - for I suspect the particular use I encountered was part of an idiolect based on the person's own life).

[identity profile] gillpolack.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
If you get called 'girlie' by a heterosexual male in Australia, it demonstrates he is superior. I was on an interview panel where a poor guy didn't realise he had this habit, and called two of the interview panel 'girlie' - he got a special debriefing on being polite to one's superiors. It didn't cost him the job: other things cost him the job - he was way underqualified. It was part of a mind set he had, as someone to whom things came - he didn't need to fill all the selection requirements and he called females 'girlie.'

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 07:54 am (UTC)(link)
"Yid" isn't a word I've come across at all often, but in my very limited experience it's used in a similar way to "Taff" or "Yank" - coat-trailing terms that don't always appear to be hostile but crouch at the border of hostility, ready to leap across at a moment's notice. I personally wouldn't use any of them under normal circumstances.

I agree that "Jew" is a better example (though a more complex one because of its far longer history and the ambiguity of its scope in terms of ancestry vs. religious practice). That ability to slide between neutral term and slur gives an easy out to bigots. Your debate experience sounds very familiar from a trans perspective, too: many's the time trans people have been asked to take part in a "civilized debate" about their right to exist, and the treachery of language in this regard doesn't help. (Whenever this kind of subject comes up I take the opportunity to recommend this wonderful blog post by Ika Willis - now teaching in Wollongong!)

In answer to your question, I generally only come across "cis" in either academic or activist circles - it's certainly not a component of most people's everyday conversation. 99% of the time it's a simple descriptive label, but inevitably it often figures in critiques of cissexist practices, institutions and assumptions. If those are assumptions one happens to hold, and one finds any critique of them disturbing, then I suppose it's likely the word will come to have negative associations - much as the word "sexism" does for sexists. But I only come across "cis" being used as an insult vanishingly infrequently.

[identity profile] gillpolack.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 08:07 am (UTC)(link)
The bottom line is always how the offended parties are hearing it. That was my point. I know people who would argue that 'Jew' is never a derogative term, despite all the evidence of antisemitism. It simply doesn't appear in their circles.

I cannot see what would offend anyone in 'cis' (apart from the unfamiliarity in being defined by a term), but I *have* heard it used in a derogative way. Only by two people, though, which is why I assumed idiolect. I was silenced by one of them and the reason given was because I was cis and therefore had no speech rights in that space. This is the same reasoning I was given the other day, and also the same reasoning I am given for being silenced in so many places for being Jewish and female. These things are not all the same! They just look a bit the same.

This means I'm really aware that, when people fret about a term and they're not in the same group as me, the possibility of real concerns has to be investigated. I'm not saying it isn't neutral - I'm saying it is neutral for me but it concerns me that you're hearing people who think otherwise. I'd want to know from them, why.

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 08:14 am (UTC)(link)
This means I'm really aware that, when people fret about a term and they're not in the same group as me, the possibility of real concerns has to be investigated. I'm not saying it isn't neutral - I'm saying it is neutral for me but it concerns me that you're hearing people who think otherwise. I'd want to know from them, why.

Indeed, that was my main reason for writing this post - that I just couldn't figure out why so many people found the word "cis" so hard to accept. I must say I've been very gratified by the response!

[identity profile] gillpolack.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 08:15 am (UTC)(link)
It's a good discussion!

[identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 01:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Sure, it's puzzling that some don't like the word - and it might be true for some other word in its place, who knows - but it's still bothersome to stick one on them without their consent, given our standards of polite behavior in such matters.

Speaking again of the people whose ancestors were in America before 1492, they're pretty insistent that they're a bunch of distinct and independent tribes, and only grudgingly accept being lumped together as a unit at all. I hear them say "I'm Navajo" or "I'm Cherokee" much more often than "I'm Native American" or "I'm an Indian" (even though some of them still accept that term for the larger unit). It may take time for "cis" to be accepted, here.

There has to be more to it, though, than they "we don't need a term because we're normal" argument, because the same argument ought to apply in other cases. Considering the vehemence of anti-gay prejudice in some quarters, it's surprising that they accept a term for themselves. Or do they? They might object and I just hadn't noticed, same as I hadn't noticed anyone objecting to "cis".

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Sure, it's puzzling that some don't like the word - and it might be true for some other word in its place, who knows - but it's still bothersome to stick one on them without their consent, given our standards of polite behavior in such matters.

I agree it's bothersome - and I don't enjoy using words that are going to lead to annoyance, resentment, and derailing (deliberate or otherwise). On the other hand, I don't think I should be obliged to adopt implicitly trans-pathologizing terms such as "normal", or terms such as "non-trans" that naturalize cis people at trans people's expense. Any alternative that didn't do these things would be acceptable to me, but if no alternative is acceptable that feels like a kind of linguistic dog-in-a-manger-ism. Is this the gender orientation that dare not speak its name?

There has to be more to it, though, than they "we don't need a term because we're normal" argument, because the same argument ought to apply in other cases. Considering the vehemence of anti-gay prejudice in some quarters, it's surprising that they accept a term for themselves. Or do they? They might object and I just hadn't noticed, same as I hadn't noticed anyone objecting to "cis".

It was my wondering what more there might be more to it that prompted this post. I do find the contrast with the acceptance of "straight" and "heterosexual" by people who are vehemently anti-gay puzzling; though from what a couple of people have said here this may be explained (at least in part) by the passage of time. Those terms are common currency now, but were they always accepted? I'm too young to remember directly whether there was much resistance to them in the '70s, but [livejournal.com profile] fjm's comment above suggests there was.

[identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
"Persons who are not trans" is not a short term of the kind we need, but I think the implicit assumption that it equals "normal" is something that may just have to be lived with. Don't terms like "able-bodied" or even "seeing" or "hearing" (as contrasted with those who aren't) carry the same implicit assumption, even though not expressed as a negative? Those seem to be accepted. Maybe the long term ought to be "person whose birth body matches up with their own mental image of what sex they are."

I do wonder about the "normal" part. I mean, I get the impression - though it may not be the right impression - that people who are not able-bodied accept that something went wrong with their physical development, even though some of them - many of the deaf, in particular - consider that something to be part of their self-identity and don't want to have it corrected. Homosexuals, on the other hand, tend to bristle at the suggestion that there's anything "wrong" with them, and they emphatically don't want it "corrected" either, though that may be because of the rhetoric and attitude of those who think they can correct it.

But I don't know what attitudes prevail among the trans about this. Since so many of them go in for surgery, I'd expect they'd be willing to say that it isn't normal to have a body that doesn't match your sex identity, as this is either a burden you have to live with or something you get medically fixed. What's your take on that question, not just your own opinion but your perception of what others think?

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Your proposed long term is fine - except of course that it's a bit... long.

Seeing/blind and hearing/deaf seem to me less weighted terms than "seeing/unsighted" and "hearing/non-hearing", simply because of the way that prefixes in English correlate to linguistic (and hence cultural) markedness. Similarly, one of the commenters on the Dreamwidth twin of this post (who is disabled) refers to "disabled" and "temporarily able-bodied" precisely to counteract the way in which "disabled" tends to be understood in terms of its "opposite". (I continue to be amazed that the phrase "person of colour", which blatantly normalizes white people, continues to have currency - but that's not my call.)

Since so many of them go in for surgery, I'd expect they'd be willing to say that it isn't normal to have a body that doesn't match your sex identity, as this is either a burden you have to live with or something you get medically fixed. What's your take on that question, not just your own opinion but your perception of what others think?

Well, my perception (not necessarily to be relied on) is that there's a huge variety of attitudes and experiences. Of course many people never do seek surgery, for one reason or another. For some, what is unbearable isn't so much the bodily configuration as the experience of being continually misgendered and of having to perform a gender different from their own - especially in environments where gender roles are strictly demarcated and enforced. For others, the somatic element is far more prominent. For most, I would guess, it's both, in various proportions, which may change over time..

The fact is that the way most societies - and certainly both of ours - define these matters, it isn't normal to be trans - in the sense that it offends against the gender norms that are imposed from without and internalised from within by cis and trans people alike. If that weren't the case I find it hard to imagine that this post and discussion would be necessary. It's also not "normal" in the statistical sense that most people aren't trans, just as most people aren't left-handed (an analogy I've pursued before). The second of these is unlikely to change; the first we can work on.

Homosexuals, on the other hand, tend to bristle at the suggestion that there's anything "wrong" with them, and they emphatically don't want it "corrected" either, though that may be because of the rhetoric and attitude of those who think they can correct it.

The case with trans people is actually very similar. The kind of reparative therapy you're alluding to, which has largely been repudiated by psychiatric organizations in the West for gay people, is still vocally advocated for trans people both by some psychologists (e.g. Kenneth Zucker) and by some feminists (e.g. Julie Bindel). This is I think quite different from seeking surgery - which is not seen as a "cure" for being trans, but as a way that life as a trans person can be made livable.
ext_14294: A redhead an a couple of cats. (blodeuwedd ginny)

[identity profile] ashkitty.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
. I was silenced by one of them and the reason given was because I was cis and therefore had no speech rights in that space

I know this conversation is a bit old now, in internet years, and I should be avoiding it anyway (ironically, this is one of the few safe spaces I feel exist for all of us, trans and not, to be pedants about language)--but this is almost always how I have encountered the word and probably the root of a lot of dislike for it. Only a few times have I heard it used in another way--by the particular sort of Social Justice Pharisee who wants to speaketh loudly the right buzzwords so everyone can see how they're so much better than everyone else.

This post is actually the first time I've ever seen anybody just use it as a descriptive term. Clearly I'm hanging out in the wrong places on the internet. (Not sarcastic!)

[identity profile] lilliburlero.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 07:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't much to add to this, but I found the discussion really interesting. I find 'cis' a helpful, neutral term to refer to people who (like me) have a gender identity matching that they were assigned at birth and who do not experience gender dysphoria. As far as I understand it, that's all it means, and that encompasses quite a range of gender identity. (Which is, of course, not to say that there aren't people for whom neither cis or trans quite works as a self-descriptor.) I hope it catches on a bit more widely, and stops being seen as an 'academic' term.

[identity profile] wosny.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
You have had a lot of comments!
I read the article and some of the comments before becoming irritated by the attitudes displayed. It did teach me the meaning of the word cis, which I had wondered about...but not with any strong feelings either way.
It was mainly useful as a way of reminding me that one does not need to ask personal questions, they can (and often are) be offensive.
I have wondered, and this isn't a question, but while we are skirting the transgender subject, how often gender and sexuality follow each other? As I said, my niece has married a woman, and so I assume, although it is dangerous to make assumptions, that she always fancied girls, and her gender wasn't relevant to this, whereas Radclyffe Hall, whose biography I read recently, seemed as though she might well have chosen to be a man had there been the possibility, none-the-less she only fancied women. Her partners were all previously hetero, and the evil Una Troubridge, having abandoned her husband for Radclyffe, then went off with a toyboy (and of course Radclyffe's money) after her death.

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm glad you found it interesting - so did I!

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 09:20 pm (UTC)(link)
As ever, I don't pretend to expertise, but there are certainly straight and gay (and bi, etc.) trans people, just as there are cis people.

It would be interesting (if only out of intellectual curiosity) to know whether there is a higher proportion of non-heterosexual trans people. I suspect that's the case, for a couple of reasons, but this is purely speculative.

First, we live in a heteronormative culture. Anyone brought up here as a boy is going to be encouraged to see girls as objects of sexual desire (and similarly in reverse for people raised as girls). This means, in effect, that our culture pushes trans girls to be lesbians and trans boys to be gay men. If there is even a small degree of nurture as well as nature involved in determining sexual orientation, then the net effect will be to increase the proportion of homosexual trans people.

Second, if you have come out as trans and you also happen to be gay you are arguably more likely than a cis person to come out as gay too, since (at least in the UK in 2014) being gay has greater mainstream acceptance than being trans - so why would you be open about the former but not the latter? (Of course, this will vary dramatically from individual to individual - I speak only of averages.)

Obviously I don't know what went on inside Radclyffe Hall's head, and wouldn't presume to speak for her. But living as a butch lesbian might seem to be one option for a trans man of that era (and later ones). Not ideal, perhaps, but a kind of modus vivendi. Whether that was Hall's situation, I don't know.

[identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 09:29 pm (UTC)(link)
We've clearly been in different parts of the internet!

I do read a lot of people talking about gender, trans and queer theory, etc., where "cis" is just a useful word corresponding to a fairly fundamental concept - and is far heavier on denotation than connotation. Equally, I tend on instinct to avoid the shoutier parts of town (including Twitter), so I may miss some of these pharisaical exchanges. At any rate, I'm grateful to everyone who's commented (so far at least!) for keeping this particular conversation so good spirited.

[identity profile] wosny.livejournal.com 2014-03-22 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I guess that I don't really see it in that way, more that there are two different criteria...gender and sexuality, both of these existing on a continuum (sp?) and not necessarily connected...or even existing in a static way.
However this way of seeing the situation is quite difficult for me to envisage, or exactly understand, I feel as though I am describing something of which I have no concept.
(Straight, white, middle class and extremely boring = me)

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