School subjects

[steepholm]

It's almost too easy to point to the multiple absurdities of the latest scheme to put Forelock-tugging and Primogeniture on the National Curriculum. Instead, I'll content myself with highlighting this strangely ageist aside from Lord Goldsmith, which is otherwise liable to be lost in the general welter of nonsensicality:

"I think a formal ceremony which marks that passage from being a student, who's learning about the theory, to a citizen, who now is practising the reality of being a citizen, I think that is a useful thing."

So students are not citizens! You heard it here first, people.

Comments

[hafren.livejournal.com]

I think he meant "taxpayer". The great rite of passage to adulthood used to be employment or apprenticeship; all these daft notions are feeble attempts to recreate that. I do agree that students, unless working and paying tax, are not fully adult citizens.

But swearing allegiance to the monarch was last necessary around the 16th century when the then Pope was urging Brits to rebel against the crown. As far as I'm aware, the present incumbent isn't up for that.... Daft idea. I would certainly refuse; I don't wish the woman any ill but I don't owe her any particular allegiance either.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

I do agree that students, unless working and paying tax, are not fully adult citizens.

Well, by 'students' I think he really meant 'children', or at any rate people who haven't left school yet (I don't think he meant university students, though who knows?). And it's true, of course, that they don't have all the rights that adults do - the right to vote being the most obvious. But does the fact that they don't do paid work or pay income tax (they already pay other kinds of tax, such as VAT) mean that they're not fully citizens? That seems a very slippery-slope argument to me, by which it would be easy to argue that the unemployed, housewives, the retired, those unable to work through disability, etc., aren't fully citizens either.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

The kind of story that really makes my teeth grind, for many reasons, not least thinking of how the teenage (Irish-descended, Catholic) me would have felt obliged not to swear any oath of allegiance to a (British, Protestant) monarch, all the while facing the frank disbelief or ridicule of her peers. Stupidly unimaginative response to whatever problem is being perceived.

[xnamkrad.livejournal.com]

OK - have to ask - what the frak was this guy smoking? Its clear that hes talking about schoolkids here, and when would the indoctrination - oops I meant education - start. So would this oath be to the Queen? If so would this mean that when she goes they have to take a new oath? Also should not the entire population take the oath?
"Other proposals are thought likely to include a revamp of Britain's old treason laws, such as sleeping with the wife of the heir to the throne, which is punishable by life in prison." Does he want to abolish this law or reactivate it?

[hafren.livejournal.com]

No, I think students are citizens, just not fully adult ones, as I said. I don't think of someone who has not yet entered the workplace and is, usually, still dependent on the Bank of Mum and Dad as fully adult.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

"Other proposals are thought likely to include a revamp of Britain's old treason laws, such as sleeping with the wife of the heir to the throne, which is punishable by life in prison." Does he want to abolish this law or reactivate it?

If they take that one seriously, they'll have to arrest Prince Charles.

[hafren.livejournal.com]

If they take that one seriously, they'll have to arrest Prince Charles.

Not to mention Andrew Parker Bowles....

[shark-hat.livejournal.com]

A rebate on council tax and student fees?!?
Apart from "Bleurgh!", my first thought is that anything like this would pretty soon fall down on religious discrimination grounds- not everyone goes around swearing oaths, and imposing financial penalties on Quaker teenagers seems pretty clearly Not On to me.
If it was entirely voluntary, that just leaves "Bleurgh!"

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

OK, madness of the proposal aside, I think I understand what Lord Goldsmith meant. At least over here, one of the fundamental ideas of elementary education used to be that public schools were in part preparing children to be citizens, which meant adults who contributed to society as voters and taxpayers.

Childhood today is really so different, though, from when I (or Lord Goldsmith!) was a child. I seem to remember much more in terms of freedom, and fewer "adult" responsibilities and expectations. This isn't a rose-coloured view, or at least I don't think it is. When I were a lad, the kinds of responsibilities most of my friends and I had were to our families and in school. I had a very few friends who worked jobs while at school, and most of them were expected to turn part of their paychecks over to supplement family income or into a fund for college. When my daughter was at school, kids worked so they could buy themselves stuff. Somehow, we seem to have started raising consumers instead of citizens. This is mostly a comment on the US (where I haven't said the Pledge of Allegiance willingly since I was about 12) -- and if this came out of the Bush administration, I'd worry a lot. But in the present instance, I think it's simply a misguided attempt to figure out a way of creating an artificial sense of community.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

My post not-so-helpfully conflated two of my particular betes-noire, to create a chimera. The idea that loyalty to the queen is a value around which all British people can happily gather is just bizarre, though I'm sure you're right about Lord G's motivations; but my hackles also rise at the implication that children are not really people in their own right, but only half-finished adults. My instinctive feeling is that citizenship (if that word has any meaning in a monarchy) isn't something one studies in theory as a child before doing it for real as an adult, any more than being human is something one studies in theory as a child before doing it for real as an adult. They're both learned on the job.

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

Oh, I absolutely agree with you on both counts, as I'm sure you inferred. I just worry sometimes that today's children are not learning on the job, as it were. My ideas of citizenship are probably tinged with too much history, too! I have few problems with the ideas of differing levels of citizenship for children. And I suppose it does come down to inequality, in that I don't think children should have the right to make some decisions for themselves at some ages. (and from a practical POV, having ages of consent is better than case-by-case decisions). But ... this is tough and I'm probably not expressing it very well... I think that the protections of the law and due process should be extended to everyone, regardless of citizenship. So in that sense, citizenship for children is moot. And I think that Citizenship, which includes voting, being taxed, being in the armed forces, sitting on a jury, etc., should be limited to adults. OTOH, where citizenship is a synonym for 'member of a community', then I think that children are very much citizens.

I'm not a big one for oaths to the state. But I do believe that I pay taxes for the greater good (how the government screws up their collection or use is beside the point), and I have both a right and a duty to vote and serve on juries. But those are the responsibilities of adults. Children have a different set of responsibilities that I think should be increased with certain rites of passage -- but not a loyalty oath!

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

And I think that Citizenship, which includes voting, being taxed, being in the armed forces, sitting on a jury, etc., should be limited to adults. OTOH, where citizenship is a synonym for 'member of a community', then I think that children are very much citizens.

That's a distinction I can happily live with.

[emmaco.livejournal.com]

I keep going to write a reply and having my fingers trip over each other in a race to point out the most stupid aspect first. But that quote is really dodgy, how on earth can anyone say students are not practicing citizens?!

I admit that I am sorely tempted by the lure of an additional public holiday (was jibbed two days by moving here!) but no, even for an extra holiday I don't think I can support the madness :) It seems so self-conscious to make a holiday to celebrate "Britishness". (At least Australia Day has a solid historical backing even if it does celebrate nicking a country people were already living in)

As an aside, I was reading an article talking about lowering the voting age to 16 in an attempt to have young people vote for the first time while they're still at school (assuming there's an election that coincides, I guess) and can receive help on voting etc. The idea is this encourages more political engagement throughout their lives. I don't know if there's much evidence to back the approach up but it sounded interesting!