Language usage question: "outwith"

[steepholm]

I would have done this as a poll, but only have a basic account.

1 a) Are you familiar with the word "outwith"?
b) Do you use it yourself?
c) Does its use strike you as affected when coming from a non-Scot?
d) Do you get the impression that it is increasing in usage outwith Scotland?

2 a) Are you Scottish (or have lived a considerable time there)?
b) Welsh/English/Irish?
c) From outwith the British Isles?

Comments

[communicator.livejournal.com]

I am English born and bred, and I probably would have just thought 'archaic' rather than Scottish, except that your poll has reminded me it is a Scots thing. I quite like quirky words like that, so it wouldn't seem affected, but I wouldn't say it myself.

[lamentables.livejournal.com]

I am thoroughly English, am familiar with the word, didn't know until just recently that it's Scots, consider it useful not affected, and used it in the essay I wrote at the beginning of this month because it was the best fit for what I wanted to convey.

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

I am familiar with the word , and use it myself at the least provocation - from which you may deduce that its use strikes me as - what shall I say? - pleasing and not to be taken for granted, but not affected. I haven't noticed any increase in usage...

And I am English, but northern English.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

I know it, have only heard it from Scots to date (and one Colombian who lived in Scotland), and live in Wales. And wouldn't think it affected, just interesting. ;)

[dru-marland.livejournal.com]

I like the word, and would happily use it if I were Scots; but it would feel affected were I to use it as a natal Yorkshirewoman. In fact, I rather like Scottish words generally, and it's quite reassuring that they manage to remain so different.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

a natal Yorkshirewoman

I thought you were from south Wales? Or did you move there young?

[dru-marland.livejournal.com]

Yes, we moved from Yorks v early on.... another Scottish word I like is 'byke' for a wasp nest. And there's a nice short disquisition on the Auld Alliance in the works of Jane Grigson, who contended (possibly mischievously) that when scottish milkmaids called "Proochy moo" to the cattle, they were actually saying "Approachez moi".... oh yes, and partan for crab. We had a book in primary school called Angus the Tartan Partan.

[heleninwales.livejournal.com]

I think you said more or less exactly what I would have said, but I was born and brought up on the other side of the Pennines in Manchester. I know the word, but would feel odd trying to use it when it's not part of my native dialect.

[dru-marland.livejournal.com]

...actually, I'm a cispennine Yorkie; the bit of Saddleworth that saw my nativity got handed over to Lancashire in the reorganisations. How rude is *that*?

[dorianegray.livejournal.com]

"Outwith" always sounds to me as if someone wanted to use "without" in its opposite-to-within sense, but didn't quite dare. It bugs me, mildly.

Yes, it seems to be becoming more common; I've seen it several times this year, but rarely if ever before.

Irish person here.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

"Outwith" always sounds to me as if someone wanted to use "without" in its opposite-to-within sense, but didn't quite dare.

I know what you mean! Not that I've ever heard anyone actually use "without" in that sense, apart from when singing "There is a Green Hill Far Away"'. Sometimes, though, "outwith" seems to fill a gap that neither "outside" nor "beyond" quite manages.

The increasing usage was a mild impression, though it seems to be confirmed by this Google ngram.

[drasecretcampus.livejournal.com]

But see the various cities with streets of the form -- Without (North Bar Without, in Beverley).


Near to me is Thanington Without - usually suffixed by shops, without pubs, without anything. I think it's outside the Canterbury Parish, but there's something odd (I forget what) about that parish system here.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Yes, I almost added "and in place names", but then I couldn't actually think of any, so didn't!

[dru-marland.livejournal.com]

close to home, there is the church of St Michael on the Mount Without, which is, unsurprisingly, on St Michael's Hill, next to (IIRC) the plague pits

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, the dear old plague pits...

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

1 a) In a vague sort of way, in that I thought "oh yes, that word, um, it means..."
b, c, d) Not really.
2) Mostly (Northern) English, though small quantities of Scottish blood a few generations back.

3) Are you familiar with "overfaced", to which I was introduced comparatively late in life but I find very useful?

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Are you familiar with "overfaced"

No, I'm not. What does it mean?

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

It's "overwhelmed in anticipation" - you might put off attempting a task because you're overfaced by it, or you might be overfaced by too much food on your plate.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

I like! Thanks for increasing my vocabulary: I'll definitely find uses for that.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

It was my aunt who told me about it, so it's probably northern English, though she's also spent time in Scotland, France and (mostly) London. Which suddenly reminds me of another completely unconnected verbal thing, but it might interest you; she once told me that she suspected the origin of the phrase "to lose one's marbles" was a similar phrase in French concerning "les meubles", ie furniture (by implication in this case mental furniture).

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Sounds plausible. It's quite hard to see why marbles (whether the sculpture type of the children's toy) should represent sanity. Furniture makes slightly more sense, I guess!

[heleninwales.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised that you weren't already familiar with it, but it occurs to me that I first met it in a riding context, especially with regard to jumping. You have to be careful not to overface a young or inexperienced horse, ie you mustn't point them at something too big for their level of skill and training.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it's related to the phrase "face down" - as in "He was almost overfaced by the thought of taking on Messi but in the event he faced him down."

[heleninwales.livejournal.com]

My immediate thought is that there is no connection, other than that there are a lot of phrases using the word "face", but I am not an expert in these matters. Also I can't find "overface" in any of my dictionaries, which disconcerts me a little after having used the word for so long. Perhaps it counts as a technical term?

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

It does get into the OED, where it's connected with 'outface'.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I'm familiar with it, but can't remember if it's via my Scottish father, or as a result of a childhood spent obsessing over Walter Scott novels. I don't say it myself in public, but sometimes say it when at home.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't even know how to use it.

[sheenaghpugh]

1a. yes
b. not if I'm thinking, but it is becoming more natural to me.
c. depends. If it were, say, a lawyer speaking it wouldn't.

2a. no, but I live there now and hear the word so much it's come to seem normal.
b. half Welsh, half Irish
c. no

[sheenaghpugh]

The Scottishism that alarmed me most was "where do you stay?" for "where do you live?" because it osunds so much less permanent and more aware of mortality!

Shetlanders also say "wife" for "woman". Not sure if that is Scottish or Norse-derived.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Yes, it does! In Bristol, they ask where something is by saying "Where's 'e to?', which for a long time suggested something in motion to my Hants-sprung mind.

I don't know about wife for woman. It could come from either, I'd imagine, as that's the common Germanic meaning (woman = Old English wif-man, iirc), though now preserved mostly in words like fishwife and goodwife.

[sovay]

1 a) Yes.
b) No.
c) Depends on context? It works great in Cloud & Ashes.
d) I have no idea.

2 a) No.
b) Not for generations and only on one side of family anyway.
c) Indeed.

Well, I use it when and as I list.

[wemyss.livejournal.com]

But then, I would do, wouldn't I.

[aryky.livejournal.com]

1a) yes
b) I actually find it hilarious you should ask, because. . . I go through stages of using weird slang with myself, and lately my weird slang for something being possible is that it's "not outwith the bounds [of possibility]. So. . . I use it privately, as kind of a joke, but I would not use it in communication with other people.
c) I don't know that I would even expect a Scot to use it! I think of it as "archaic" rather than Scottish, like communicator, only unlike communicator, I don't think I ever knew it was Scots, so I can't be reminded of it.
d) Now I'm wondering. I don't remember having encountered it in contemporary usage lately, but, otoh, there must be some impetus for my having started thinking "outwith the bounds" so much recently.

2a) No. I lived six months there. . . .
b) No.
c) yes.

[joyeuce]

1 a) Vaguely; I've heard it and understood it in context.
b) No.
c) I didn't know it was Scottish. It doesn't strike me as affected so much as just odd, like the use of "obligate" where "oblige" would do perfectly well.
d) Don't know.

2 English

[owlfish]

Yes, but I have never used it. It does sound affected to me, and I have not particularly noticed a recent increase in its use. I have never lived in Scotland.

[endlessrarities.livejournal.com]

1a) Yes; ib) Yes; 1c) No; 1d) No

2a) Yes; 2b) Yes; 2c) No.

Sorry I'm late!!

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

New knowledge is never untimely!

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