Jimmy Carr and Rape Jokes
Nov. 26th, 2011 11:54 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
steepholmNot many weeks go by on 8 Out of 10 Cats without some kind of joke aimed at trans people, usually emanating from Jimmy Carr or Sean Lock. I've not seen anything there to compare with the Moving Wallpaper episode of a couple of years ago, or Russell Howard's Good News sketch about a budget airline staffed by trans women from earlier this year (both of which were declared just good clean fun by Ofcom/the Beeb, and not offensive at all), but they usually manage to slip in some casual trans bashing. A few weeks ago, for example, when Tim Minchin was a guest, there was an extended bit of banter between the panellists as to which of them would make "a good (or bad) tranny".* Last night was relatively mild, with Carr just making a throwaway remark about Lady Gaga being an attractive bloke. (More an intersex than a trans joke, in fact, not that Carr is likely bothered about this.)
I've never found Carr funny, but Sean Lock has had me in stitches in the past. Of the two, Lock seems more clearly to have a stage "persona", which it's easy to believe differs from the off-stage man - although it's also easy to believe that it differs largely in being an exaggeration of traits that he actually possesses, rather than in being a satirical inversion on the lines of, say, Al Murray. Comic personae are of course slippery things, and can easily be used by comedians to give themselves an instant out for anything they may say or do - "It wasn't me, it was him!" Nevertheless, I gave Lock quite a lot of rope, to begin with. Carr's rather unpleasant sneering at everyone less privileged than himself never seemed exaggerated or ironic. Or, indeed, funny.
Anyway, last night was Jimmy Carr night on Channel 4, and I happened to catch the end of it - a transmission of a stage show from Glasgow. By this time, only die-hard Carr fans and a few accidental viewers such as myself would have been watching, I suppose. Carr finished by saying a few things about comedy, and told his "favourite pub joke" - which was a rape joke. "What's the difference between rape and football?" "Women don't like football." The audience (both women and men) laughed a little nervously, then thought better of it - as Carr pointed out himself. He went on to suggest (not quite in these words) that what made comedy powerful and interesting was precisely its ability to make us recognize our own darker impulses, the ones we would rather disown. Now, a lot of that laughter came from a totally different source, I would guess - discomfort and embarrassment on Carr's behalf rather than self-recognition - but let's grant that there's some truth in that idea. Some women and some men do fantasize about rape. What do we do with that recognition? Carr didn't say, but, bearing in mind (frightening thought!) that at one time he considered become a psychotherapist, my guess is that, in his view, forcing the conscious mind to acknowledge the existence of those darker impulses makes them easier to confront and control.
In the context of a psychotherapy session, that observation may have some validity. In context of a stand-up act performed to a thousand people in a theatre, it's bullshit. Rape culture works precisely by normalizing and trivialising rape in this way, and telling a rape joke is no more likely to prevent rape than airing a sketch like Russell Howard's is likely to increase understanding and acceptance of trans women. It's hard to see why that isn't obvious to Carr, who's not unintelligent - but I suppose that if he acknowledged it he would have to ditch much of his act, and face up to his own misogyny. It's a classic case of repression.
* After the show, Minchin was called on his use of "tranny" on Twitter, and after a brief bit of bluster took the chance to educate himself a bit about trans matters - something for which he was widely applauded. The frequency with which the word's since been used on My Transsexual Summer has tended to undermine the effect of this, but the writer of "Prejudice" will understand that questions of language and reclamation are complicated. (What was more offensive than the word, in my opinion, was the idea that trans women could be rated as "good" and "bad", depending on their resemblance to cis women.)
I've never found Carr funny, but Sean Lock has had me in stitches in the past. Of the two, Lock seems more clearly to have a stage "persona", which it's easy to believe differs from the off-stage man - although it's also easy to believe that it differs largely in being an exaggeration of traits that he actually possesses, rather than in being a satirical inversion on the lines of, say, Al Murray. Comic personae are of course slippery things, and can easily be used by comedians to give themselves an instant out for anything they may say or do - "It wasn't me, it was him!" Nevertheless, I gave Lock quite a lot of rope, to begin with. Carr's rather unpleasant sneering at everyone less privileged than himself never seemed exaggerated or ironic. Or, indeed, funny.
Anyway, last night was Jimmy Carr night on Channel 4, and I happened to catch the end of it - a transmission of a stage show from Glasgow. By this time, only die-hard Carr fans and a few accidental viewers such as myself would have been watching, I suppose. Carr finished by saying a few things about comedy, and told his "favourite pub joke" - which was a rape joke. "What's the difference between rape and football?" "Women don't like football." The audience (both women and men) laughed a little nervously, then thought better of it - as Carr pointed out himself. He went on to suggest (not quite in these words) that what made comedy powerful and interesting was precisely its ability to make us recognize our own darker impulses, the ones we would rather disown. Now, a lot of that laughter came from a totally different source, I would guess - discomfort and embarrassment on Carr's behalf rather than self-recognition - but let's grant that there's some truth in that idea. Some women and some men do fantasize about rape. What do we do with that recognition? Carr didn't say, but, bearing in mind (frightening thought!) that at one time he considered become a psychotherapist, my guess is that, in his view, forcing the conscious mind to acknowledge the existence of those darker impulses makes them easier to confront and control.
In the context of a psychotherapy session, that observation may have some validity. In context of a stand-up act performed to a thousand people in a theatre, it's bullshit. Rape culture works precisely by normalizing and trivialising rape in this way, and telling a rape joke is no more likely to prevent rape than airing a sketch like Russell Howard's is likely to increase understanding and acceptance of trans women. It's hard to see why that isn't obvious to Carr, who's not unintelligent - but I suppose that if he acknowledged it he would have to ditch much of his act, and face up to his own misogyny. It's a classic case of repression.
* After the show, Minchin was called on his use of "tranny" on Twitter, and after a brief bit of bluster took the chance to educate himself a bit about trans matters - something for which he was widely applauded. The frequency with which the word's since been used on My Transsexual Summer has tended to undermine the effect of this, but the writer of "Prejudice" will understand that questions of language and reclamation are complicated. (What was more offensive than the word, in my opinion, was the idea that trans women could be rated as "good" and "bad", depending on their resemblance to cis women.)
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(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 12:04 pm (UTC)Point they forget every time though that we _own_ the word- cis people do not!
How many reasonably educated cis people who are not PoC would dare to use the 'n' word or perhaps more aptly in the UK, the 'w word? They know it to be unacceptable and so is their use of the 't' word!
Even more unacceptable is the beeb's attitude to all this.
I do not: 'lack a sense of humour' but I do lack a hatred of my fellow human beings.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 06:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 10:12 pm (UTC)I have never managed to laugh at Jimmy Carr. I might if he caught his essentials in a mangle...
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 12:02 am (UTC)I don't think the w-word is considered inoffensive in the US, simply outré or archaic.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 03:53 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 10:50 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 10:52 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 12:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 10:48 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 12:04 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 03:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 12:22 pm (UTC)Yep. Something about internet and media culture seems to give people the idea they should live inside-out, or at least not have any private thoughts, or, you know, not have the obligation to sometimes shut the hell up.
There are things one can say amongst friends (though I don't think that 'joke' is going to be funny in any context) because you all have the same context and a knowledge of the backstory; they're less likely to take things in a way you don't mean them and more likely to call you on crap if you say something you shouldn't. But things you can get away with to a drunk friend or a psychotherapist are not necessarily things you get to say to strangers in public without looking like an ass.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 01:59 pm (UTC)That Jimmy Carr joke strikes me to be a joke about a man holding misogynistic attitudes... and yes, the first note is discomfort and embarrassment, and then, "why the fuck would he go there, what a sexist bastard... oh."
But then, I feel the same way about The IT Crowd Episode, The Speech
For a while I was trying to figure out why I didn't feel more offended... or if I should... and then I realized, Douglas is an upper-class-twit. Nobody supports Douglas in his decision to break off his relationship with the admittedly internalized-cissexist (oh, like that's something you never see among middle-class trans women) butchy straight trans woman April, and Douglas acts like, well, an idiot. April doesn't take this well, but then, she's not the first woman to hit a man (though she is the first to break into an epic fight with one) for being a boorish twit in the series, which, is possibly more of a social justice issue best left to male-centric-feminists like No, Seriously What About The Menz.
Ultimately, context is everything, and good comedy writers know how to insert it, so if they say things that are in no way defensible based on the actual material of the joke and the context it provides, either they're hatemongers, or they're just bad comedians. I wonder which would horrify them more...
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 02:57 pm (UTC)Context is important, yes. Where MW went wrong wasn't in showing the comically-obnoxious boss making transphobic remarks, etc. It was the fact that everyone in the show, including the supposedly more sensible and sympathetic characters, did the same (even the show's credits misgendered the trans character), and that this attitude was utterly vindicated by the plot. There was no alternative viewpoint offered from which to view their behaviour.
I'm afraid I don't buy the line that Carr's joke about rape is really a joke about a man making a joke about rape. That's why I brought up the question of comic personae, and their convenience as a way of offering instant deniability. Once the joke's told, there are all kinds of ways of dissociating yourself from it. Carr also tried to defuse his rape joke in another way, by talking about the fact that he'd made a rape joke and shifting the blame to the audience for their own laughter.
I don't suppose many of the comedians who tell rape jokes (and it's apparently very fashionable amongst the 'edgy' and 'daring' set) would say they find rape intrinsically hilarious. But it's too easy to say "By telling rape jokes, I'm making fun of people who tell rape jokes", "By telling racist jokes I'm making fun of racists," etc. Jim Davidson could say as much.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 04:16 pm (UTC)Like I say, context is everything, and yes, the IT crowd episode was awesome... I won't spoil anything too badly for those who haven't seen it, but the internet does hang in the balance.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 04:23 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 04:56 pm (UTC)I dunno... big writers' room, I hope.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 03:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 03:44 pm (UTC). . . like the impulse to laugh at a rape joke?
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 04:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 04:05 pm (UTC)I don't think he'd have made a very good psychotherapist.
What is My Transsexual Summer?
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 04:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 06:47 pm (UTC)I'd be interested to see that post. (Though who knows if the show itself will make it over here. Some UK tv does, some doesn't.)
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 05:03 am (UTC)Ditto.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 10:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 10:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 03:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-26 05:52 pm (UTC)Rape fantasies are absolutely not about real rape.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 01:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 03:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-27 08:07 pm (UTC)Предновогодний конкурс
Date: 2011-12-01 08:10 am (UTC)Ваших родных поучавствовать в
праздничном конкурсе "Что такое Новый Год?" :) Напишите
рассказ, отправьте фотографию, создайте видеоролик с Вами или с Вашими домашними на тему "Что такое Новый Год" и выиграйте полезные
призы от компании по производству фильтров для воды "Барьер". Узнай подробней о конкурсе -http://goo.gl/CNuk5