steepholm: (Default)
[personal profile] steepholm
In my last post I wondered tangentially why David Prowse's Bristol accent should disqualify him from speaking the part of Darth Vader. It's not as if American accents are more likely than West Country ones in that part of the universe, after all.

Well, the answer is of course convention. West Country is comic in the same way that English RP is the speech of suave villains, and these things become self-perpetuating. (When did that villain thing start, though? Basil Rathbone, perhaps? Or does it go back to colonial times? I assume the practice of using English actors to play Nazis in war films did a lot to entrench it.) Nor is it just a matter of accents. When did you last hear a woman do the voice-over for a film trailer? If the answer is anything other than 'Never', we've been going to different cinemas.

Okay - but the West Country thing is far older than Hollywood. In one sense, it's just a particularly virulent strain of the age-old contempt for people from the country on the part of city dwellers. The countryside is the place where naifs and bumpkins come from, to be taken advantage of by canny city crooks, from Wycherley back to Middleton and Jonson. The very word "clown" originally meant "rustic", of course - although the connotations of stupidity and crassness were there from the first (the word seems to be etymologically related to 'clot', as in a lump of clay).

But why that particular part of the country? Why the West? For Wycherley and others in the Restoration, Hampshire seems to have been the bumpkin territory of choice. Hants is I suppose on the borders of the West country (at least the part I come from, the New Foresty bit), but at the north-east end is pretty much in the commuter belt. Its relative proximity to London may have been an advantage from the dramatists' point of view, as might its reputation for pig-breeding. ("Hampshire born and Hampshire bred, strong in the arm and thick in the head," is a rhyme I heard when young, but have since seen applied to other counties.)

The earliest text I can think of that seems to target the West particularly - or seemed to when I read it as an undergraduate - is Gammer Gurtons Needle, where the hapless rustics say things like "cham" (short for "Ich am") instead of "I am". I parsed that as West Country at the time, and indeed on checking the OED just now I see that that form survived longest in south Somerset (into the early nineteenth century), but that's not to say it wasn't to be found elsewhere when GGN was written in the 1570s.

Francis Drake and Walter Ralegh, strongly accented Devonians both, seem to have done nothing to dispels the "West Country"=bumpkin association. But seafarers in general, and pirates in particular, are a curious exception to the rule - there, West Country accents are fierce and threatening! Why should this be? (Isn't Darth Vader just a space pirate, when all's said and done? Or at any rate, a space privateer like Drake, since he's under orders from the Emperor.)

According to his Wiki page, Prowse was nicknamed "Darth Farmer" by Carrie Fisher and the others on the Star Wars set - but in fact he's not from the country at all. At half a million, Bristol has a population more than ten times the size of Fisher's own hometown of Beverley Hills, which is of course famous mainly as the residence of a comedy bumpkin named Jed Clampett. Oh, the irony.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 09:21 am (UTC)
lamentables: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamentables
Growing up in Nottinghamshire, it was 'Derbyshire born and Derbyshire bred, strong in t'arm and thick in t'head'.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 09:23 am (UTC)
lamentables: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamentables
Or maybe 'th'head' - it's been a while.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 09:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/
I'm Anglo-Welsh, via Coventry. Welsh accents are very rare on tv/radio (apart from Huw Edwards) and working calss Welsh voices don't exist. Same with my father's native Herefordshire ('bumpkin'). The only place I ever hear a proper Coventry or Black Country accent is very occasionally on The Archers ('ugly'). Yet we are bombarded with the voices of the south-east. I tend to thing a lot of this is down to media London-centricity.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 09:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
Absolutely. This could be a very long series of posts, if I tried to analyze the conventions associated with all the accents of the British Isles, but then that might be fun to do! Birmingham and the Black Country seem to me particularly badly served - not only rare and often described as ugly (which just isn't so, to my ears), but apparently considered 'stupid' too.

There was an experiment a few years ago, which I wish I could find the details of, in which the same lecture was given to groups of students by the same lecturer, but sometimes in RP and sometimes in Brum, and when the students were asked to rate both the lecture and the lecturer, he had somehow lost much of his intelligence by adopting a Brummie accent.

Rants against Londoncentricity are a regular feature of this blog, but one example I heard the other day amused me. When the new high-speed rail link between London and Birmingham was announced, one Cockney wag was heard to ask, "Why would anyone want to go to Birmingham?" So myopic had his bigotry rendered him that he had apparently forgotten that trains tend to run in both directions...

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Date: 2012-03-30 10:20 am (UTC)
ext_6322: (Jarriere)
From: [identity profile] kalypso-v.livejournal.com
Remembering my surprise when I got off a train from Manchester in Bristol thirty years ago and found that people really did speak like that, I think my impression was of long-drawn-out vowels. So maybe it's something to do with an assumption that speaking slowly means thinking slowly?

Oddly enough, I have no memory of hearing anyone speaking with that accent on recent trips to Bristol. Is it just that I tend to be visiting incomers, or is it a sign of local accents declining?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 10:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
A bit of both, perhaps, but if you go to the right areas (or "ariels" as they say round here) Bristol accents are still in quite plentiful supply. Anywhere south of the river Avon is usually a good bet, but there are places near me too (e.g. Southmead).

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Date: 2012-03-30 11:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shewhomust.livejournal.com
The internet blames the whole talk-like-a-pirate thing on Robert Newton (sample citation from Wikipedia, but that's not where I heard it first).

Please do make it a long series of posts!

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Date: 2012-03-30 12:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
I assume the fact that a good many real pirates came from this part of the world must been a factor. I imagine that anyone who laughed at Blackbeard's Bristolian accent might have lived to regret it.

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Date: 2012-03-30 05:03 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Haruspex: Autumn War)
From: [personal profile] sovay
The internet blames the whole talk-like-a-pirate thing on Robert Newton (sample citation from Wikipedia, but that's not where I heard it first).

I believe this to be the case also. (And I hope it's true, because I've gone around telling other people.)

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Date: 2012-03-30 11:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] calimac.livejournal.com
I was going along with you until the last line. Jed Clampett lives in Beverly Hills, but he isn't from there. There's a difference.

Item: To Chaucer, the North was where comic regional accents came from. See The Reeve's Tale. Tolkien wrote an article about this.

Semi-irrelevant creeb: I've met people, even people from England, who think that the term "the West Country" means the west Midlands.

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Date: 2012-03-30 12:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
I have seen last error even in the notes to the Norton Anthology of English Literature (in the notes to 'Lycidas'), where Cheshire and Anglesey are both said to be in the West Country.

(I did know that about Jed, honest.)

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a long comment on LA cities, part 1

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Date: 2012-03-30 11:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cmcmck.livejournal.com
And of course in a great reversal of the norm, the Coventry Shearers' Play has the wonderful comic character Mak, who puts on a southern accent to try to fool his shepherd friends..........

From memory, their retort is something like: 'How now, Mak, take out that southern tooth and set in a turd'

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Date: 2012-03-30 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
Ha - I don't think I've read that one! Will remedy.

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Date: 2012-03-30 12:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malkhos.livejournal.com
In Hollywood films about the first century Church, Romans usually have RP accents, and the Christians have American accents, no doubt in part to draw attention away from the fact that almost all of them would have been Jewish.

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Date: 2012-03-30 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
I'd not thought about that genre, but you're quite right.

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Date: 2012-03-30 01:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] calimac.livejournal.com
The most crucial fact about popular Christian iconography that I learned from The Last Temptation of Christ had nothing to do with Mary Magdalene. If you see a group of thirteen men in long hair, beards, robes, and sandals walking towards you, how can you tell which one is Jesus?

He's the blonde.

That be 'Darth Varmer', me lover.

Date: 2012-03-30 02:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wemyss.livejournal.com
And it's so much easier to fleece townies if they think you thick. (As I recall, thic yere Wezz Country draw-ell and them as zpeak en be thought zure-ly more honezt by they vules vrom Lunnon. Which has its advantages....)

Or of course we can simply blame Adge and the Wurzels.

I prefer Barnes to Hardy...

Date: 2012-03-30 03:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
... and admire both the Cutlers of our age, Ivor and Adge:

Folks say nowadays we've got to change our ways,
The papers say so, so I s'pose 'tis true,
We've got to take the chance, with Germany and France,
And live like all they foreign people do.
Now, I wonder if they'll build the Eiffel Tower on 'arptree 'ill,
Put gondolas down on the River Chew,
Shall us all drive on the right, and drink up all the night -
When the Common Market comes to Stanton Drew?

Adge Cutler - poet and prophet!

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Date: 2012-03-30 05:12 pm (UTC)
sheenaghpugh: (Brain)
From: [personal profile] sheenaghpugh
Enoch and Eli (or Aynock and Eloi as they say it) are also classic comedy bumpkins, and they aren't necessarily rural, just Midlands, ie non-metropolitan. I see it as a London vs rest-of-the-country thing. Aren't there ancient Roman jokes about slow non-cityfolk?

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Date: 2012-03-30 05:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
Ah yes - I remember my cousin from Wolverhampton mentioning them! And I think you're right about the Roman jokes. A lot of Renaissance city comedy riffs off Plautus and Terence, so perhaps some of scorn for bumpkins is a learned affectation?

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 05:22 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
It's not as if American accents are more likely than West Country ones in that part of the universe, after all.

I have been told that Irvin Kershner made a conscious decision to cast the Imperials in The Empire Strikes Back with British accents and the Rebels American, which I suppose means that dubbing in James Earl Jones signals Vader's eventual loyalties from the start (or would if it were a consistent system; I don't believe it was in place by A New Hope and I don't know if it was kept up for Return of the Jedi. I haven't seen any of the films since the winter of 2006, when I dug out my old unaltered tapes and could still play them). I don't know his reasons aside from Hollywood convention and the obvious link of empire; anyone who's actually seen an interview on the topic should let me know!

The countryside is the place where naifs and bumpkins come from, to be taken advantage of by canny city crooks, from Wycherley back to Middleton and Jonson.

Here; have a turning-the-tables song. Bellowhead, "(The Rigs of) London Town."

(Isn't Darth Vader just a space pirate, when all's said and done? Or at any rate, a space privateer like Drake, since he's under orders from the Emperor.)

I am putting in a formal request that you write something next with space privateers, thank you.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
dubbing in James Earl Jones signals Vader's eventual loyalties from the start

What - so Darth turns out to be one of the goodies in the end? Like Snape? If so, blowing up an inhabited planet is deeeeep cover - like, hardcore. (I'm afraid I haven't actually seen Return of the Jedi.)

Thanks for the Bellowhead - a very fine body of musicians!

I'd love to do something on space privateers, but between Firefly and Blake's Seven I think that shuttle may have launched.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-03-30 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dorianegray.livejournal.com
When your successive waves of...inhabitants, for want of a better term, are coming more or less from the east, it seems logical that they would regard the inhabitants of the west as scary, bad, wrong, and later bad, wrong and stupid, and then wrong, stupid and risible...

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Date: 2012-03-30 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steepholm.livejournal.com
That makes a lot of sense in general terms. The irony is that England had been united as a nation by the power of kings based in the West Country - and that the people who finally ousted them had no use for the English language at all.

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Re: Wessex mec heht gewyrcan

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