Hard-to-Google Lit. Crit. Queries...

[steepholm]

Is there a general term for novels (or other fictions) that contain/mention themselves? I mean, the novel is called The Book of Glum, and it's about someone who turns out to be writing or reading a book called The Book of Glum, or we're at least given to know that this is a world where The Book of Glum already exists?

Also, is there decent existing discussion (in journals or elsewhere) of this phenomenon?

Comments

[nightspore.livejournal.com]

Repeating from a nested comment by way of hoping for more information myself:

Yes -- I've been looking for a term, or for some narratological account, of the very simple distinction between first person fictional worlds where what you read can be found (e.g. epistolary novels, journal novels, etc.) and where it can't. Sometimes you don't know you're in the former until late: e.g. Double Indemnity, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night.

Also: A Hundred Years of Solitude.

And Javier Marías does this intertextually: (sometimes repeating) characters from his novels... interlexically read the novels other characters appear in, who read the novels they appear in.

I feel that John Sutherland might now the answer to this. He has a neat piece on stories where the author is mentioned as a minor character. Martin Amis has a novel where someone notices "that asshole Martin Amis" at another table. And Billy Pilgrim briefly runs into Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. In The Gunslinger a character has a weird experience that reminds him of "that movie The Shining," which of course Stephen King hated.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Yes -- I've been looking for a term, or for some narratological account, of the very simple distinction between first person fictional worlds where what you read can be found (e.g. epistolary novels, journal novels, etc.) and where it can't. Sometimes you don't know you're in the former until late: e.g. Double Indemnity, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night.

And there's also less precise distinction between epistolary/diary/etc. fictions where what you read can theoretically be found but in practice won't be because the letters (or whatever) are just a formal literary device, and those where the writings and/or their composition are a significant part of the plot. Again, this can shift from the first to the second quite late on. (Diana Wynne Jones's Black Maria is one example.) I'm trying to remember how far into Pamela Mr B. discovers P's letters - or did I misremember his doing so entirely?

I think that Amis novel was Money, wasn't it? And the speaker is John Self (lest we miss the point).

I think that E. Nesbit has a fairly transparent self-portrait in The Treasure Seekers, but I don't recall that she's actually named. However, in a slightly different part of the forest, the children in her House of Arden get interested in time travel because they've been reading her Story of the Amulet, published the previous year.

[nightspore.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think so.

My interest is this: that it's vanishingly rare that a first person narrator can die (we assume she lives and are entitled to assume that), but not at all rare that you can have a concluding sentence such as this: "He made me promise I'd never tell a soul [the story just narrated], and that's a promise I intend to keep." Which may be true in the fictional world. So the ontology of the first person narrator is that if they're telling the story, they're alive in their world (or they couldn't tell it); but they're not necessarily telling it in their world. That's a strong convention, but not one that is necessary, so I am interested in the receptive psychology that makes it feel so strong, makes it seem so inviolable.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

That's a really good point. The obvious solution would be to say that the narrator is simply writing the story for their own benefit and not for anyone else to read, but that's not usually how it comes across. I don't have a solution, but if you're looking for a catchy name for this effect, how about "Midas's Barber Syndrome"?

There's also a negative image of this, for an example of which (simply because it's handy) I'll give you the opening to my 2006 book, The Lurkers:

I may not have much time to write this. The Gates of Memory are shutting all around the town. I’ve been trying not to think about it, trying not to draw attention to myself, but I have to face the facts. Today, while I still know what the facts are. In a few days I may pick up this notebook and not recognize a word I’ve written. The Lurkers can do that, you know. I’ve seen it happen.

And you?

You’ll think it’s just a story.

There's no end of fun to be had with this stuff.

[nightspore.livejournal.com]

Oh, neat. I still have Death of a Ghost, I am embarrassed to say, in the to-read pile. (At least I own it!)

[diceytillerman.livejournal.com]

My interest is this: that it's vanishingly rare that a first person narrator can die

I know of an example of it happening, and now that I think about it, the book's subtitle might be the name of a book she's writing. (It's been many years since I've read it, but it's something like that.) But I can't decide whether to name it here because it's (natch) the most enormous spoiler for the book…. Should I?

[nightspore.livejournal.com]

I would certainly like to know! But pm me (or email me at nightspore at gmail) to avoid exposing the secret to others....

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

The poet in The Treasure Seekers is called Mrs. Leslie.

Edward Eager's Seven-Day Magic is a book that supposedly creates itself as the children in it have their adventures, and winds up being the book that the reader is reading.

[sue-bursztynski.livejournal.com]

Hey, I missed that novel! Drat! It's probably out of print.

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

It's in print in the US.

[wolfinthewood.livejournal.com]

Naomi Mitchison plays a minor role in the novel Lobsters on the Agenda (1952) by Naomi Mitchison.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

That's a wonderful title!

(By the way, I've tried a few time to comment on posts of yours here on LJ, but every time I do so I get an error message. Any idea why?)

[wolfinthewood.livejournal.com]

No. I'd better try and find out what is happening. Thanks for telling me.

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

The category 'author mentioned as a minor character' had better exclude frame narrators like Colette, and Lewis in the Space Trilogy, or it will be overwhelmed by Kipling, who probably was in frames within frames, with an informant offering him a new story for the 'sequel' to his in-story-mentioned next collection.

Mark Twain too, I bet. Hm, Huckleberry Finn introduces his book by mentioning Twain and criticizing Tom Sawyer.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Oh, and Lewis makes a fleeting personal appearance in Dawn Treader too, doesn't he, talking to Lucy at some point after that adventure - though presumably before her death, unless this is a future conversation scheduled to take place in Aslan's Country?

[houseboatonstyx.livejournal.com]

I don't recall that. Several things got changed between editions. Aslan appeared for some summing-up conversation; at the time, Lewis thought VDT would be the last book.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

It's very brief, but this is the passage I was thinking of:

And suddenly there came a breeze from the east, tossing the top of the wave into foamy shapes and ruffling the smooth water all round them. It lasted only a second or so but what it brought them in that second none of those three children will ever forget. It brought both a smell and a sound, a musical sound. Edmund and Eustace would never talk about it afterwards. Lucy could only say, ‘It would break your heart.’ ‘Why,’ said I, ‘was it so sad?’ ‘Sad!! No,’ said Lucy.

[nightspore.livejournal.com]

I think for Sutherland it does. The minor characters are characters who have no idea about the story we're reading, no idea that there's a story going on around them. Not even Prufrockian...